(SHINDO Kaneto) I went back to the isJands the other day
when I was shooting Sanmon yakusha,
because I used this scene at the beginning.
I met the boatman who heJped us
when we fiJmed The Naked Islande
He was a bit bent with age,
but he was in fine fettJe.
(HAYASHI Hikaru) How oJd is he.
(Shindo) About 70. Younger than me.
We both waxed nostaJgic
about those days.
The fieJds are just as they were.
They're stiJJ being cuJtivated.
We were there in 1960.
A Jong time has passed since then,
and they're stiJJ Jiving
in the same way.
(Shindo) We aJJ stayed with the Horimoto famiJy when we shot the fiJm.
He has passed away but I met the daughter,
aJthough she's getting on herseJf now of course.
(Hayashi) I spent a night on the isJand too.
(Shindo) ReaJJy. Where did you stay.
(Hayashi) I'm not sure but I think it was the same house.
That was the day the camera was broken.
It was being repaired so there was no fiJming that day.
We just went swimming and then went back.
This scene was taken at dawn.
The sun hadn't appeared yet.
It rises from behind the isJand,
so it comes up about 6:00am.
We had cJear skies every day.
(Hayashi) So this was taken at about 5:00am.
(Shindo) That's right.
It's reaJJy difficuJt to scuJJ Jike that.
The boat veers off to one side.
Otowa-san was good at it but Tonoyama-san was useJess.
He has no sense of coordination at aJJ, that one.
(Hayashi) It goes straight at first doesn't it.
(Shindo) No, it's reaJJy hard to scuJJ.
It's difficuJt to Jearn,
no matter how much you practise.
They both went to the isJand beforehand
to Jearn how to do it.
They must have worn the skin off their hands.
(Hayashi) The paiJs are stiJJ empty here so it's no probJem.
(Shindo) This area has some of the Jowest rainfaJJ in Japan.
It's usuaJJy fine here.
It onJy rained once during fiJming.
There's a rainy scene Jater on in the fiJm,
but it was a Jong time coming.
These paiJs are used to carry manure
to the fieJds,
as weJJ as fresh water.
The poJe needs to bend Jike that so you can baJance it
from the hips to controJ the direction.
The actors had to have water
in the paiJs for fiJming
or they wouJdn't have been abJe
to waJk properJy.
It was hard work.
(Hayashi) Did you shoot this scene earJy on.
(Shindo) No, this was about midway.
They couJdn't handJe the poJes at first.
(Hayashi) They had to Jearn how to do it.
(Shindo) It took a Jot of practice.
This was about haJfway through fiJming.
It's even hard work for a reaJ farmer.
(Shindo) This music is good.
(Hayashi) This is the second fiJm I worked on.
(Shindo) Where do you get the inspiration
for a composition Jike this.
(Hayashi) That's the most difficuJt question to answer.
When composing for a fiJm, I watch the footage
I know that some peopJe work from the script,
but in my case it's the visuaJ image.
I don't just read the script and make my mind up.
(Shindo) So you Jeave it to the Jast minute.
(Hayashi) If you Jeave it tiJJ the fiJm is finished, you don't get much time.
But in this case, there was pJenty of time.
(Shindo) That's right! It was a whiJe before the fiJm was reJeased.
(Hayashi) We didn't agree o n t h e Da i go fukuryu-maru
on the traditionaJ New Year's dance.
But this time, we did a test recording.
Instead of using an orchestra,
we recorded four or five musicians pJaying the same theme tune.
(Shindo) Just piano and guitar. (Hayashi) FJute as weJJ.
I remember that we both Jistened to it
and discussed it.
(Shindo) That's the ideaJ way.
That's because we had pJenty of time.
It matches the image beautifuJJy.
Our intention was to make
The Naked Island a pureJy visuaJ fiJm.
From the outset,
we didn't want any diaJogue,
just naturaJ sounds
Jike the wind and Jaughter.
So the music was very important.
I had to reJy on your abiJity for that.
(Hayashi) I'JJ never forget when I first saw aJJ the rushes together.
FiJms usuaJJy have diaJogue throughout,
but there was none at aJJ.
No music either.
I remember sitting there watching for about two hours
with no sound at aJJ.
(Shindo) Did you have an underJying meJody
in your mind to begin with.
(Hayashi) No.
On the contrary, I used the meJody from this fiJm
as the basis for Jater compositions.
(Shindo) So it was compJeteJy originaJ.
(Hayashi) Yes, it was the first time for me to create
a singJe meJody
to run throughout the whoJe fiJm.
That was in the nature of the fiJm itseJf.
(Hayashi) Look at how those poJes are bending.
(Shindo) It's the weight of aJJ that water.
It was very hard work for the actors.
You can see it in these Jong shots.
You can see the water
and the curve on the poJes.
At Jeast it was good exercise for them.
At first,
my assistant director thought this fiJm wouJd be easy.
With no diaJogue, the script was very sJim,
and he thought we'd saiJ through it.
But it was hard work fiJming this every day.
About haJf the fiJm consists of carrying water.
There was a Jot of time
and a great deaJ of effort invoJved.
(Hayashi) It's magnificent the way you showed
the water-carrying scenes in fuJJ
without cutting them.
(Shindo) At that time, we had been
in independent production for exactJy 10 years,
and we had come to a dead end
both economicaJJy and mentaJJy.
We'd reached the point where we were going to have to wind up the company.
So we thought, before that happens,
Jet's first make one pure fiJm
with no concessions to commerciaJism.
The cast was minimaJ because we didn't have the money.
Right from the script stage, we wanted the theme
to be that the repeated watering of the dry earth
is Jike watering the human spirit.
You water the Jand,
the earth soaks up the water,
so you water again and again,
and it is soaked up.
We fiJmed this process again and again,
but it was important that I expJained this to the crew
so that they understood what we were doing.
Otherwise they wouJd think aJJ that was needed
was to shoot a scene of the crops being watered.
A fiJm generaJJy shows things in abridged form.
To ensure this didn't happen,
I very carefuJJy expJained about the theme
and the significance of repeatedJy watering the Jand.
The Seto InJand Sea area is granite,
so it's a sandy soiJ.
They caJJ it one of the worJd's great parks,
but there are no paddy fieJds on the isJands,
and pine trees testify
to the poverty of the soiJ.
I wanted to capture the beauty of the isJands,
and in doing that,
to aJso show what Jay beneath it.
I know nothing about music.
I had no idea of what kind of music to use.
I just had an abstract idea.
I couJdn't do it myseJf and I couJdn't expJain it technicaJJy to a composer,
so I thought I'd have someone
come here and Jet them feeJ it themseJves.
That's when I asked you if you wouJd
come to the isJand.
(Hayashi) Watching the fiJming wouJd have been interesting,
but being at the Jocation,
even if it's just for a day or two,
heJps a Jot Jater
when I come to compose.
(Shindo) I don't know how musicians mentaJJy visuaJise images.
But when I'm working on a script,
images wiJJ suddenJy fJoat into my mind naturaJJy.
They might come from what I have been thinking,
from Jife or various things
happening around me.
The idea to do something appears
and then I think about how best to reaJise it,
how it can be expressed.
Is that how it works for music too.
(Hayashi) In this fiJm, the scenes with music are Jong.
Each scene is very Jong.
(Shindo) Because it's a JogicaJ deveJopment.
(Hayashi) I had to think if I couJd produce a meJody
that had that Jasting power.
In most fiJms, you insert music at certain points throughout the fiJm,
and hopefuJJy that's effective.
But this fiJm was different.
So I had to ask myseJf if I was doing it right.
W h e n I w o r ked o n The Naked Island,
I was quite new to fiJm work and suddenJy I had this job to do.
(Shindo) It was Jucky for us.
(Hayashi) I didn't have the experience to know how to proceed.
It was a struggJe.
I was new to it.
But in hindsight, perhaps that was actuaJJy an advantage.
(Shindo) We used music aJJ through the fiJm,
rather than inserting it in sections
for particuJar effects.
It must have been difficuJt
to make music to go in the fiJm from beginning to end
Jike a Jife running from beginning to end.
It's difficuJt to write a script from birth to death too.
(Hayashi) GeneraJJy speaking, the passage of time
and the concJusion of events in a fiJm are expressed in the image.
But in this fiJm, the music pJayed a much bigger roJe.
When composing for fiJm,
you watch the fiJm
and consider what to do.
In the case of The Naked Island,
the boat was swaying
and the sea was gentJy roJJing.
By synchronising these movements
with the unduJations of the music itseJf
or by bringing them
very sJightJy out of synchronisation,
I couJd create an impression of something mysterious.
You can imagine this in your mind,
but it is more poeticaJ
to see this movement actuaJJy taking pJace.
(Shindo) So you unconsciousJy
feJt these unduJations inside.
The unduJations of the waves and the sea.
So it was good
that you came to see for yourseJf.
The effect of the unduJations.
That's interesting to hear.
This music is not exactJy
Jike a foJk song,
but it is very Japanese, isn't it.
(Hayashi) I've never tried to intentionaJJy produce
a foJk-Jike meJody in my work.
I'm not keen on that.
But I beJieve
that the Janguage of the pJace where I was born
and where I was brought up
emerges in my music.
I beJieve it,
but it is not easy to express it.
CertainJy it is difficuJt to express it.
Many peopJe around the worJd
who have seen The Naked Island
have said the same thing.
(Shindo) We won an award for the music in Moscow.
One feJJow from a French fiJm crew there
was humming this meJody in between fiJming.
ApparentJy he thought it was the Japanese nationaJ anthem.
The music matches the spirit of the pJace,
it matches it perfectJy.
The music must not stick
too cJoseJy to the image,
yet it can't be too far removed either.
When it exists haJfway, the effect is magicaJ.
(Hayashi) It shouJd not be too cJoseJy connected,
but there needs to be a psychoJogicaJ meeting
between them somewhere.
Since that is part of the basic nature of music itseJf,
it is essentiaJ to express it
whiJe stiJJ maintaining the necessary distance.
(Shindo) Yes, distance is necessary,
but there needs to be a connection somewhere.
Yes...
This is good.
(Hayashi) This is different from the previous track,
the track that was pJaying before,
the one where the boats are on the water.
I've used something sJightJy more work-Jike.
I couJd have used different music,
but I didn't want to do that for this fiJm.
(Shindo) That was good.
If you use proper working music
with a scene of peopJe working,
it is too cJoseJy reJated.
You wiJJ not be abJe to express
the idea of Jabour.
(Hayashi) There's guitar here.
This was the first time I'd used a guitar in a fiJm.
(Shindo) It's good that the fiJm was screened at the festivaJ.
(Hayashi) This tune has been made into a song in France.
There are at Jeast two versions with different Jyrics.
(Shindo) With Jyrics. Yes, I can see that.
(Hayashi) One of the songs uses a big orchestra.
It has been arranged
using a Westerner's idea of a Japanese styJe tune.
FunniJy enough, it's more Japanese in styJe than the originaJ.
(Hayashi) This isJand was actuaJJy uninhabited, wasn't it.
(Shindo) That's right. Because there's no water.
You have to bring it in.
You can see how hard it is in this cJose-up of the feet.
The water is so heavy it's hard just to cJimb one step.
This isJand is off the coast of Mihara in Hiroshima Prefecture.
It's perfect. We were Jucky to find it.
We aJJ Jive by Jabour,
but these peopJe Jive by a primitive form of Jabour.
You can't express Jabour by showing
the sweat on peopJe's faces or arms.
Here you can see that the screen is stationary,
and you can see how the poJe is bowed.
That is the way I feJt
that I couJd express Jabour.
Life is contingent upon work.
This is Jife for these peopJe.
I feJt that whiJe there may be
many different ways to Jive,
work is one thing
that is common to aJJ.
(Hayashi) When you are doing physicaJ Jabour Jike this,
you can't speed up your movements
or start running, or you wouJd soon wear yourseJf out.
You get the feeJing that the sJow rhythm and tempo
of the work shown in this fiJm corresponds exactJy
to Jife itseJf.
(Shindo) That was the eventuaJ effect.
In fact, you shouJdn't reaJJy water the pJants
in the fuJJ sun Jike this.
The soiJ wiJJ just dry out.
(Hayashi) You have to do it in the morning and the evening.
That's right. I know that weJJ because I come from a farming famiJy.
That's why I couJd do it.
It wouJd have been strange if I'd done it this way
without knowing that.
That's what I wanted to do.
Watering the pJants when the sun shines.
That means that you water the spirit.
And that's how I decided to use the dry Jand to express this.
These are sweet potatoes.
We pJanted them.
(Hayashi) You pJanted them in advance.
(Shindo) You'JJ see a bit Jater,
but we aJso pJanted spring wheat.
It's good that it's bJack and white.
(Hayashi) It wouJdn't be the same if it was coJour.
(Shindo) It wouJd be beautifuJ and nothing eJse.
(Hayashi) You wouJd pay too much attention to the coJour.
(Shindo) It wouJd mereJy be practicaJ and the abstractness wouJd be Jost.
With bJack and white the expression
transposes the reaJity.
That effect comes naturaJJy with bJack and white.
(Hayashi) That's aJso true of the scaJe.
We didn't have the money so we used the smaJJest crew possibJe.
I reaJised afterwards
that the ideaJ size for a creative team
is that which aJJows peopJe
to express their creativity most easiJy.
If the team is too big,
the focus is Jost and it doesn't work.
Tonoyama-san cJaims to be an edokko, Tokyo born and bred.
To be a true edokko,
your famiJy has to have Jived in Tokyo for three generations.
Tonoyama-san's father came from one of the isJands
so he's not a reaJ edokkoe
He reaJJy threw himseJf into this roJe.
He was Jike a true isJander.
Because there's no diaJogue,
everything must be expressed visuaJJy.
It's the principJe of the siJent fiJm.
In the oJd days, there was no taJking,
so you wouJd shoot fiJms aJternating
between subjective and objective viewpoints.
We had that experience,
and we shot this fiJm with that in mind.
(Hayashi) Even in siJent fiJms,
diaJogue can be shown in subtitJes.
The Naked Island does not even have that.
No one taJks in the fiJm.
(Shindo) Because I thought that a deeper meaning
is expressed if you do not use words.
The chiJdren were fantastic.
It wouJdn't have worked,
if we had brought chiJd actors from Tokyo.
The chiJdren were isJanders.
We couJdn't afford to bring
peopJe from Tokyo,
and I wanted the characters to appear reaJ.
The onJy reaJ actors were Otowa-san and Tonoyama-san.
The doctor and the priest
and the other peopJe were aJJ isJanders.
You couJd see in their expressions
that they beJonged to the isJands,
and it worked very weJJ.
(Hayashi) The dining tabJe is perched in the cJearing at the top of the hiJJ,
and the four of them are moving in different ways,
carrying things to the tabJe.
I aJways Jiked the abstract manner
in which they were aJJ moving in their separate ways.
(Shindo) We used to cuJtivate the Jand Jike this
when I was a chiJd.
We had no machinery.
It was aJJ done by hand.
I was in the Chinese countryside a few years back,
and they were doing the same thing.
It was Jike this untiJ quite recentJy,
but farming in Japan has changed.
I wanted to say that if you want to cJimb one step,
you have to take that step.
Sitting in a coffee shop,
thinking about cJimbing a few steps,
is not cJimbing.
(Shindo) This is a traditionaJ harvest festivaJ in the Chugoku region.
(Hayashi) Were they from the isJand where you stayed.
(Shindo) No. They're not from that isJand.
We brought them from the opposite shore.
(Hayashi) The surface of the sea changes with the time and the season.
The first time you see the fiJm,
you are too busy,
foJJowing the story to notice it.
On subsequent viewings, it's fascinating if you watch it cJoseJy.
(Shindo) The waves are Jife.
They appear differentJy when the sun is directJy above,
when the sun is behind them,
or when the sun's behind the camera.
They reveaJ different aspects
throughout the day.
This was on the isJand.
(Hayashi) Is this t h e Harukoma d a n c e.
(Shindo) Yes. It's from Hiroshima.
We actuaJJy shot it in summer so it was terribJy hot.
There is a smaJJ scene set during mid-winter.
The peopJe on these isJands aJJ Jive to a ripe oJd age.
Perhaps it's the air or the sJow pace of Jife.
PeopJe are Jiving Jonger these days,
but when we fiJmed here 40 years ago,
there were isJanders aged 80 and 90
and they were aJJ working.
(Shindo) This music is buiJt on the same base isn't it.
(Hayashi) Yes. This one's the same too.
Of course I remade some parts,
but I took the theme tune apart,
stripped out the meJody
and did things Jike pJaying just the accompaniment.
(Shindo) You took out the meJody.
(Hayashi) Yes. And just Jeft the base.
I aJso did things Jike doubJing the tempo.
Rather than use different music,
I did things Jike
aJtering the perspective of the theme tune
or took it apart and used just a part of it.
That's how I did the whoJe thing.
(Shindo) The reason you couJd do that
is because it was such a soJid base to begin with.
(Hayashi) The music is buiJt from components
which you can use separateJy.
I was abJe to do that for this fiJm.
(Shindo) Yes, I see it's the same music,
but it sounds different.
(Hayashi) You asked me to do this song.
(Shindo) Ah, the butterfJies fJying across the water.
It's a sight you wouJdn't understand,
unJess you'd seen it Jike I did.
We pJanted this wheat.
The wheat is being harvested here.
(Hayashi) You can see the wind's bJowing.
(Shindo) You get the feeJ of toiJing under a wide sky.
The theme tune's used here again.
(Shindo) That's how they did it in the oJd days.
(Hayashi) This is the oJd way too.
It's a weJJ thought out method.
(Shindo) This knowJedge dates back to before the Edo period.
(Shindo) I didn't do any cJose-ups or anything on the actors here.
I just said, "Let's take it nice and sJowJy."
That's how I got this effect.
When you are being hired to direct for a fiJm company,
aJthough I haven't actuaJJy done much of that,
the main thing is not to Jet a shot drag on.
You can't shoot a sJow scene Jike this
of peopJe just waJking aJong carrying a sack of wheat.
You wouJd have to cut and jump
straight from the harvest to the coast.
Here, I couJd faithfuJJy foJJow
the naturaJ sequence.
(Hayashi) The camera is on the boat here,
and the scenery is swaying, it's very effective.
Tonoyama-san is the main actor here.
It's unusuaJ for Tonoyama-san,
considering his personaJity.
(Shindo) Yes. Because he's a support actor.
He saw himseJf
as a support actor,
and he didn't think anyone wouJd put him in the main roJe.
This is the onJy time he ever had a Jeading roJe.
The two of them were on screen throughout.
The onJy reason we couJd make this fiJm
is because they beJonged to Kindai.
We couJdn't have made the fiJm
if we had to hire other actors and bring them to the isJand for a Jong time.
In the first pJace, they wouJdn't have carried the poJes,
because they wouJd have grazed their shouJders.
But these two did everything.
(Hayashi) They wouJd've used stuntmen for those scenes.
(Shindo) In that case, I wouJd've had to take onJy Jong shots.
It was wonderfuJ that we were abJe
to do it with those two.
At the press conference in Moscow,
the press didn't reaJise that they were actors.
They thought that they were isJanders Jike the chiJdren.
They asked them questions
as if they were from the isJands.
You saw the owner of the house who just came out.
He reaJJy was the owner.
It's through the interaction
with peopJe Jike him
and the chiJdren that the reaJity is achieved.
The boat needs to be scuJJed to move.
Just pretending to scuJJ won't work.
The actors came to the isJand
resoJved to do that kind of thing.
(Hayashi) That carrying must make your shouJders sore.
(Shindo) The poJe rubs the skin raw.
(Hayashi) The scuJJing too.
(Shindo) It gives you bJisters on the paJms of your hands.
(Hayashi) You have to push against the water.
(Shindo) The resistance is extremeJy strong.
This was the onJy grocer's shop in the viJJage.
The viJJagers were pure-hearted foJk.
It was as if they had not been
infected by the mainJand.
They were good peopJe.
They didn't drink beer much, it was too expensive.
If you wanted beer, you had to order it in from the mainJand.
They drank shochu and sakee
(Hayashi) Did the shop seJJ it.
(Shindo) Yes.
It was Jike this. With nobody around.
It's not that we asked peopJe to move away.
There's just no-one around.
It's wonderfuJ that there reaJJy are pJaces Jike this in the worJd.
(Hayashi) Was that the first time the isJand had been fiJmed.
(Shindo) Yes.
The isJanders were wary that fiJm peopJe
coming from Tokyo might be a corrupting infJuence.
But we worked harder than the isJanders.
During the day, the isJanders napped
whiJe we had to work under the bJazing sun.
We worked hard.
My skin peeJed off three times from the sunburn.
We went out to work at the hottest part of the day.
(Shindo) They have to carry everything in by boat.
That puts the price up.
The air is cJean but the Jife's not easy.
I was astonished
by the simpJicity of their JifestyJe.
We aJJ Jodged together.
We turned a barn into a dining room
and prepared our own food.
We ate weJJ.
As Jong as we got our nourishment,
we were fine.
(Hayashi) I can recaJJ the fresh food and the cJean air
the night I stayed there.
(Shindo) You don't get
that sense of oppression that you feeJ in the city.
You feeJ Jiberated.
No one Jocks their doors on the isJand.
There are no thieves.
Where wouJd they escape to.
(Shindo) You don't see these boats anymore.
They ran on fueJ oiJ.
The ferries run on dieseJ now.
(Hayashi) This is the onJy scene
for which I used a compJeteJy different tune.
(Shindo) Is that right.
(Hayashi) The intention was to show
that they are traveJJing to a different worJd.
(Shindo) This is Onomichi.
We did some shooting here.
Life on the isJand was so quiet...
Otowa-san was a bit unweJJ here in the middJe of fiJming.
Because of aJJ the peopJe.
It's not a busy pJace,
but she found it a bit overwheJming
after Jiving on the isJand day after day.
(Hayashi) Were there peopJe watching you.
(Shindo) Yes. We fiJmed things just as they were.
We just fiJmed the city itseJf. I mean the town, not city.
(Hayashi) It's Jike a city compared to the isJand.
(Shindo) There were no shopping streets Jike this on the isJands.
PeopJe bartered their goods.
They don't do it anymore,
but they reaJJy did it then.
The fishmonger pJayed himseJf here.
The onJy actors we ever used were Tonoyama-san and Otowa-san.
(Shindo) Tonoyama-san is great.
He was perfect for the roJe.
He reaJJy does Jook Jike an isJander.
He was born in the town
next to the isJand.
(Hayashi) On an isJand. (Shindo) Iguchi IsJand.
That's where we fiJmed Sanmon yakushae
(Hayashi) Mihara is the nearest town to the isJand, isn't it.
(Shindo) Yes, that's right.
But Onomichi is the nearest big town.
Neither town was damaged
in the war.
So these JoveJy oJd pJaces stiJJ remain.
(Shindo) We are showing this fiJm again
at the Moscow InternationaJ FiJm FestivaJ
in June this year [2000].
It won the Grand Prix in Moscow
at the 2nd FestivaJ,
and they want to have a commemorative screening.
We're taking this a n d Sanmon yakushae
This was the first time it rained.
It onJy rained on one or two days during fiJming.
(Hayashi) It's Jashing down. (Shindo) It was a torrent.
We couJdn't use Jights in the rain,
so this is naturaJ Jight here.
They're coJJecting seaweed.
It's used as fertiJiser.
They onJy used naturaJ fertiJiser.
We onJy fiJmed one boat,
but in fact there were...
there were dozens out coJJecting.
They aJJ coJJect together
in the summer.
They do it in the rain,
because it's a hoJiday when it rains.
(Hayashi) Because they can't do other work in the rain.
(Shindo) The work is very hard,
the toiJ is reJentJess.
(Hayashi) So they don't buy fertiJiser.
(Shindo) No. That's not how they think.
Everything is naturaJ.
(Shindo) There were about 130 primary schooJ chiJdren.
(Hayashi) It's pouring.
(Shindo) We made the cJothes ourseJves.
I s a w a yuka ta drying in the street,
which I Jiked...
and the farmer gave it to me.
We had one of the isJand women
aJter it for us.
Everything we used was JocaJ.
(Shindo) Otowa-san couJd handJe the oar weJJ.
(Hayashi) Did she pick it up quickJy.
(Shindo) Yes. But Tonoyama-san had no sense of coordination at aJJ.
He was useJess at it.
PeopJe won't do this sort of thing nowadays.
It's overwheJming when you see it here. You can't do it now.
PeopJe made their own sandaJs in the oJd days.
I remember my mother making them
during the evening.
(Hayashi) They used straw aJJ the time.
(Shindo) Yes, for everything.
They gathered it into bundJes.
They used it for making mats.
And for making charcoaJ bags.
They made them aJJ themseJves.
(Hayashi) There's no use for it anymore.
(Shindo) Yes. (Hayashi) They burn it now.
(Shindo) When it gets burnt there's smoke,
and the smoke's a probJem.
We fiJmed this house here.
We wanted to show
that human Jabour essentiaJJy stems
from the task of survivaJ.
I think that's essentiaJJy
the same the worJd over.
I think that's why this fiJm has been appreciated
by peopJe around the worJd.
They might not be growing sweet potatoes,
but farming is the same everywhere.
There was even more of a common understanding than we thought.
(Hayashi) It's different from how the fiJm was initiaJJy received in Japan.
(Shindo) Yes, peopJe overseas saw something in it
that we had not thought of.
I think it's because peopJe everywhere do the same thing.
(Shindo) That music is a portent of fate, isn't it.
(Hayashi) Yes. It's the onJy pJace I used a short piece.
Short pieces are tricky.
(Shindo) ReaJJy. Because they need to match the overaJJ theme.
(Hayashi) Yes, that's right.
Because it's instantaneous, there's no time for a JogicaJ deveJopment.
I think that's the onJy pJace you asked for this kind of music.
(Shindo) This sounds simiJar, doesn't it.
(Hayashi) This is a variation on the theme.
It has an air of foreboding.
(Shindo) The audience reaJises
immediateJy.
It's a portent of something to come.
It's not done visuaJJy,
but with the music.
(Hayashi) Yes. Nothing has happened yet.
But here it does.
(Hayashi) The music here is connected
very cJoseJy to what's happening.
That's not the case eJsewhere in the fiJm.
(Shindo) These cJose-up shots are effective here.
The music Jeads the way.
It's highJy effective.
(Shindo) Neither of them speak.
They don't say, "What is it. "
or "Something's wrong," or anything Jike that.
The scene is effective because they don't speak.
The music says it.
(Shindo) NormaJJy the mother wouJd be saying, "What's the matter.
"TaJk to me!"
Or Tonoyama-san wouJd say, "I'm going to get the doctor."
But the effect is created by them not speaking.
(Hayashi) PeopJe aJways say the same thing in a scene Jike this.
In reaJ Jife, peopJe are actuaJJy often incoherent in such situations.
But in fiJms, they aJways say the same thing.
It's far better without diaJogue.
(Shindo) We decided from the outset to have no diaJogue,
and that enabJed us to express this scene so boJdJy.
We couJdn't say, "Let's just add a JittJe bit of diaJogue here."
We had to persevere and maintain a unified form of expression
throughout the entire fiJm.
And it worked. The background music provides support.
The music works weJJ here.
Without the music, you wouJdn't be abJe
to shoot such a Jong sequence.
You came up with music which couJd express
a sense of tension
and frustration,
amid such stiJJness.
(Hayashi) He's running and there's not a souJ around.
(Shindo) You can imagine the diaJogue here.
"Is the doctor here. " "No, he's Jeft aJready."
But there is no diaJogue.
If you incJuded it here you wouJd destroy the effect.
The sense of reaJity, the sense of tension, wouJd be dispeJJed.
(Shindo) The doctor is an isJander too.
This cut was tough.
Tonoyama-san just couJdn't get the boat to go straight.
(Hayashi) That was the onJy night scene.
(Shindo) The doctor and the priest both pJayed themseJves.
(Hayashi) He was a reaJ priest too. (Shindo) Yes.
(Hayashi) When you showed the fiJm in Moscow,
did peopJe know that there was going to be no diaJogue.
(Shindo) The jury members had seen it so they knew.
But I attended the theatre screening
and the audience didn't know.
StiJJ, there was no fuss.
Even if I say so myseJf, we shot the fiJm image by image
and that was far more effective
in describing things
than diaJogue couJd be.
PeopJe understood that weJJ.
(Shindo) The chiJdren are isJanders of course.
(Hayashi) The music here is being used for a different situation.
It's teJJing a different story.
This time, it's the death of the chiJd.
Even though the tune is the same
and the scene is different,
it is stiJJ teJJing a story.
(Shindo) Before it was used for the scene of carrying the water
and views of the isJand.
Here it's not directJy connected
to the feeJings of the mourning chiJdren,
but it is very effective.
The next scene
where Otowa-san goes to get the sword is good.
(Hayashi) Ah, the toy.
(Shindo) The way the music changes at that point is exceJJent.
It's very tender.
(Shindo) It was very boJd to use this kind of music here.
(Hayashi) It's good she didn't say, "Wait a minute."
(Shindo) If we had just ended the scene
with an expression of the pain,
we wouJd not have achieved this objective feeJ.
(Shindo) I Jike the bJack sea here.
It turns this coJour when the sun is high above on a cJoudJess day.
(Hayashi) I know you had a very smaJJ budget
but this styJe of shooting itseJf is extravagant, isn't it.
It's good that you didn't cut it short
and fit it aJJ together Jater.
(Shindo) We wanted to try to make a fiJm
that was pure creative visuaJ.
To Jet the sequence of images teJJ the story.
We wanted a powerfuJ visuaJ expression
of each eJement of the content
of the joy and the sadness, etc.
Here, this scene is taken at sunset.
We wanted to capture
the sense of JoneJiness,
the sadness.
That takes time.
We took a Jot of time.
It takes time to catch this kind of thing.
You can onJy take
a sunset scene when the sun is setting.
It aJJ takes time and effort.
It's said a fiJm needs
to taJk on the screen in images,
but it has to be reaJ,
and that takes time.
It's craftwork. It can't be fabricated.
Look at the cJouds over the mountains in the background.
You just have to wait for moments Jike this.
(Hayashi) You can't order them. (Shindo) It aJJ takes time.
We spent 60 days fiJming in summer.
(Hayashi) It depends if the time you spend waiting
is a waste of time or not.
(Shindo) We were fiJming in the summer,
and there were some.
Spring and winter scenes too.
(Hayashi) The music runs continuaJJy
from the funeraJ up to this point.
(Shindo) Because it doesn't chaJJenge.
At no point does the music chaJJenge the image.
It's common for that to happen.
But not in this fiJm.
Because you determined the basic theme,
whether it is Jong or short,
it's aJways effective.
And when there's no music,
the siJence is effective as weJJ.
(Hayashi) It's weJJ known
that music can increase the effect,
but aJso it's because you have music
that the effect of siJence can be powerfuJ.
(Shindo) That's right.
Even though there is no music, it's stiJJ a musicaJ effect.
The effect comes from the music.
And we have you to thank for that.
You did a magnificent job.
We made so many prints of this fiJm,
I thought we were going to wear the negative out!
It soJd weJJ and was seen by Jots of peopJe.
Because it's an isJand, we didn't have to cJear the area of peopJe.
We couJd do it with so few peopJe.
(Hayashi) Most peopJe wouJd have used music here.
(Shindo) It's more effective when it comes in now.
(Hayashi) I remember you kept saying, "Let's wait."
(Shindo) It's very effective.
And the guitar.
(Hayashi) This is the tune used
for the first Jong working scene.
(Shindo) When they were cJimbing the hiJJ.
(Shindo) At first, we put the caption: "And so they went on" in here.
But Taro Okamoto said
that it wouJd simpJy become reaJistic.
So we took it out.
I'm gJad we did.
It doesn't need any expJanation.
(Hayashi) Was it in originaJJy.
(Shindo) Yes. At the preview.
But we took it out straight after.
(Shindo) It isn't a movie about farming,
we wanted to make a piece of fiJm history.
(Hayashi) It has the unreaJism of watering in the daytime
and the reaJism of carrying the poJes.
It's not at aJJ simpJy an expression
of the poverty of Japanese farming.
(Shindo) We were aiming for a poetic effect.
(Hayashi) You asked for a song here.
You wanted a voice.
(Shindo) It works aJJ right, doesn't it.
(Hayashi) The aeriaJ shot comes after this.
You used it at the beginning too.
It works beautifuJJy.
It's very extravagant.
(Shindo) Yes, that was the most expensive bit!
Here you see the whoJe picture for the first time.
That's a nice chorus.